LUFS Bar — Free Mac Menu Bar Loudness Meter

0:00 Hi, good morning, everyone. Happy Wednesday. Welcome to Office Hours Wednesday Q&A. This is your highly technical production Q&A extravaganza. We've got an awesome panel with a ton of wisdom assembled here to help you in whatever questions you may have. So, Alexander, let's dive right in. First question this morning is coming in from Jeff Cohen in Miami Beach, Florida. What do you think about the new Audacity 4?

0:25 What do you think, Alexander? Well, I just installed it about 30 seconds ago. So I will tell you based on my own. I know, right? Look, you know, it's a free tool and it's been free since as long as I can remember. And I think any tool that is made available to the public that is maintained by a large group of people, I think, is a good thing.

0:48 It serves a certain segment of the market. people that don't want complicated digital audio workstations. They're not looking for those kinds of tools. Maybe they just want to record something quickly, a piece of dialogue, be able to make some basic edits and get it out of there and upload it. And that's really how I see Audacity. It's not a replacement for Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, Ableton, that kind of thing.

1:14 It'll never be that kind of tool, you know, unless they wanted it to be. but it looks like they want to keep it as simple as possible. Now, this new version, I've never been a fan of the user interface. I thought it was always as ugly a sin as someone who came. Now, I used to be on Windows. All right, so I know what a lot of Windows apps and UIs have looked like.

1:33 I've been using them since I was a kid all the way back to DOS. And I've always been a fan of design. And I remember when I switched to macOS, the design of apps on average, I felt looked a lot better than Windows apps. And when I look at Audacity, to me, it was always the worst of just lazy design. It just didn't happen.

1:55 It was designed by committee with just a bunch of stock icons. And it never, as Windows evolved, even as Microsoft's design team evolved with their own design language, it never took advantage. Even if you installed anything previous to 4.0, which just came out this week, if you design, if you install 3.0 on, say, a Windows 11 machine, it doesn't look at home.

2:16 It doesn't have the native Windows 11 language at all. But this new version, which I've installed, which now which has dark mode support, it is a complete redesign of the interface. And I have to say, while it's not I wouldn't call it beautiful. It is pretty decent to look at. And it looks significantly better right down to the icons. Everything got a complete overhaul.

2:42 apparently there are many other aspects of the app that have been updated as well the spectral editor there's probably lots of plugins that have been updated so the interface got an update you can revert back to what they call call a classic user interface if you want but this new version I have to say does look quite a bit better so I haven't actually used it I'm not its target customer but

3:09 But I think if you are looking for a free app to just record some audio or even just do some basic editing that, you know, based on a file that somebody gave you, normalize the audio and export it out for a podcast or something like that, it's probably a pretty decent tool for those types of people. And kudos to, first of all, any major feature release on an open source product that is maintained by a large number of people.

3:39 To get any major release up is an achievement. To get a design overhaul, I think, is even more so because everyone that uses it is very opinionated. There's a reason that it kind of hung out in the UI space that it was for a long time. Jeff? Well, and that's one of the points really is I think the main reason it did is because

4:04 the average user base of this is not necessarily the most technically inclined. I know from the voiceover world, tons of folks use it and literally the reason it is recommended as the first thing is, or chosen I should say, is because it's free. That is the primary motivator. And they're not necessarily, again, as technically inclined. So they don't like change, which is why the user interface stayed the way it was.

4:30 And still you can revert back to it if you get scared. But so I will say, now, my daily driver is Reaper. So, you know, I care more about function over form. But it is a nice update visually, I will say. But the other thing, you know, so they did a couple things technically, which really impressed me. Now, again, we're talking about from a sliding scale.

4:56 So not are they Pro Tools, but where were they last and where are they now? It seems like a pretty big improvement. Frankly, I didn't know that they had multitrack yet, but now that is apparently fully implemented. Every track has its own meter, which I guess it didn't before. It is more truly multitrack. It also finally has, which scared everyone, non-destructive editing.

5:22 That's the big change for me. Now that at least it goes into the world of at least a credible-ish DAW. And they've, again, really kind of made it easy for folks, you know, where you can, you just saw them kind of drawing in, you know, they call it envelopes, but they don't, you know, call it automation, all that stuff. So they make it a little bit less scary.

5:42 So I was almost going to write in the question something smart like, oh, I finally may not stop telling people to not use it. I think that's where I'm at with this, at least. Jeff? Francis, that is? So I've never been an Audacity fan except for certain instances, and we've kind of covered a lot of that. It's not a DAW. I still, I've only taken a quick look through that YouTube video.

6:11 So I've not downloaded it and played with it yet, but I don't see crossfades in there, which is the fundamental part of editing in a DAW. So without crossfades, we really can't use it for actual mixing editing functions. It's just too hard to put audio together quickly without crossfades. Hopefully they've not removed my favorite part of Audacity, which is its ability to open raw data.

6:38 this is a great thing if you love audio experimental things you can take a an image file and open it as audio but what i've used it for is to resurrect corrupted audio files because it will ignore the header and just pull the data out of a corrupted file say you had an sd card recorder and the power got yanked and so it didn't close the file you can use audacity to open that

7:01 file and actually get good audio out of there. Courtney? Yeah, I just, by the way, if you do have the old version and it says, oh, do you want to update? It'll update to 3.7.9. And then if you go to 3.7.9 and I checked, it says check for updates and it said no updates available. And then it popped up a window that says install 4.0.

7:27 Oh, it's a little bit confusing. The update path is not quite honed to perfection yet. So I did update it. I just started to look at it a second ago. So I'm reserving. I hope that it supports broadcast WAV files and reads timecode, but I kind of don't have my... I haven't been surprised by anything other than Pro Tools that will do that yet that, you know, that doesn't cost $1,000.

7:55 So we'll see. There aren't very many free things that do that. Mickey? Yeah, I'm surprised though when Jeff Francis mentioned there's no fade tool or crossfade tool. It's like in terms of audio editing, it's the blade tool and the fade tool. That's what you use when you edit. Without the fade, why even bother? But I do agree that the raw audio, the raw file import has come in handy so many times.

8:25 people trying to record on their own with recorders that don't have multiple media that it writes to, the more affordable audio recorders, and they lose power, power gets yanked or something, and they can't open up the file. I've helped a lot of people out with Audacity by using the raw data input, import functionality on it. But I'm a little wary, though, because with this new company that's taking care of the further development of Audacity, it kind of feels like it's on the path to perhaps turning into a paid product.

9:09 I have no clue. I have no information at all about if they've, you know, vowed to never make it a paid product. I hope it stays as a free tool that people can use. one thing I do want to touch on though for those in the panel that have actually watched the video or listened to the video specifically my gosh that that voiceover man it's like ice picks to

9:32 my ear I don't know if it's AIVO or if it's someone who just doesn't know how to mix because it's absolutely smashed against the limiter and also it's like there's a massive like 9 dB bump at like 12 or 14 K that's just like ice picks like oh have a listen after the show it's it's painful that's the new ice pick plug-in that they have in the business now with more grit

10:00 on your eardrums jeff Cohen so i did want to add a few things about that and by the way to mickey's point they did for what it's worth in this explicitly vow to keep it free now they never said anything about, you know, there might not be a paid tier or, you know, extra paid services or who knows what. But the primary product they did for what it's worth, to their credit, say, will be

10:27 free. Now, as everyone may know, when this first, you know, when the first version came out after that company bought it, people were freaking out. They, you know, they were, I guess, taking some, what looked like they added some telemetry to it. And people thought right away, there's like spyware and everything in it so you know that's that's going to be a concern and

10:49 Alexander did mention when he installed it now it's very different it's not the straightforward install you have this Muse stuff and for better for worse I'll show this real quick I mean they must have spent some money and this is a couple years ago now but they also have audio.com which is pretty good URL and And that is this Muse thing. It's, you know, it's like a, seems like a SoundCloud or something like that.

11:14 And so like other tools can publish to YouTube, this from Audacity, you can just, you know, render right to, render and upload to this audio.com. So I guess that's kind of neat again for the, for the folks where this is, you know, that are their target audience. And I will show just a couple more things real quick because, and it is funny to, to

11:38 To Jeff's point, I don't see any fades whatsoever, let alone you and your fancy crossfades. So maybe they're doing it transparently. I don't know. But look, you get this fancy EQ. So they did fancify the look of the plugins. And by the way, full VST and AU plugin support. I don't know if anyone knows if that wasn't fully supported now, but they say it is fully

12:06 supported now. So anyhow, an impressive upgrade from where they were last. Next question. All right. Jeff Francis in Columbia, South Carolina is asking, how much would you pay for a menu bar Luff's meter? Asking for a friend. Jeff? All right. So I guess this is a version of a Cochran, but so free. I found a great little free tool. Thanks to Production Expert website for putting this up.

12:36 They do have a paid version, but the free, this is a piece of software called Luffs Bar. And this is Tokyo Meltdown. It's a very simple app that simply puts a little meter. If you look up there in the upper right-hand corner, you see a little Luffs capture. And that is what is happening. So this is a Mac-only thing. It grabs your audio right before it leaves your Mac,

13:13 works with whatever audio you're doing, independent of DAW, whatever you play through it, and it grabs the LUFS there. It can actually, you can capture a reference, and it'll do comparisons to that. So it'll freeze frame wherever you click, and then it will show you the difference, the delta from that. So it's pretty handy. it's uh installs and uh it asks for one permission the ability to look at your microphone

13:39 and then nothing else so no uh no sign in no credit card no checking on the internet none of that they have a 12 paid version that allows you to put plugins into that so you can actually put your room correction software into the output of your mac and not have it in your daw and it's got bypasses for that. So pretty, pretty slick software. It's GitHub. So it's open. People

14:07 can look at it. Very cool. I've been watching it a little bit today against the OH meters and it's tracking well. Alexander? You know, I've never wanted, I think it's cool that somebody's made this, but for me, I prefer to have something on a dedicated screen. I use Ulean Pro loudness meter and it's running on a dedicated monitor and I really want that accessible at all times so I can see it.

14:36 But that's me. I haven't actually tried that menu bar. Also, I don't like stuff cluttering my menu bar. I don't like stuff running there. Courtney? Well, hey, I don't have a menu bar because I'm not running that smackintosh for you people that are addicted to it. The, you know, why don't they make a cross-platform version of anything? I would love for Zoom Workplace to put a little feature into the Zoom window so it would have its built-in view meter.

15:05 And that way we wouldn't have to wedge something in or see if it's going to work for everybody. And it'll be right there in the Zoom client for everybody who's joined a panel or joined a workplace. So I would rather see it put into Zoom Workplace than just a Mac application. So Liminal, if you're listening, don't just make it a Mac application if you're going to stick it in Zoom.

15:32 I've given myself a little menu bar just for you, Courtney. I put it right there. It's a hand-drawn and custom. You know, that is a great idea, though, because I've had situations where I'm bringing in people that are just listening to a mic with side tone for the first time. time and I'm trying to get them to be in the zone and manage their own audio, but it's

15:55 hard and they start backing off. They don't realize it would be candy to be able to have a little thing on their side. I said, Hey, here's what your sound is. Fix it. Mickey? Yeah, I would say Zoom's answer to that is the automatically adjust microphone volume checkbox for majority of the people that use Zoom, which is people who just need to have a conversation

16:19 beyond a meeting. Regarding a tiny, a small, like a loudness meter in the menu bar, I guess it might be cool to have it, but I really don't have a use case for it. If I'm mixing and I need proper meters, I have a hardware meter, Clarity, I'm here. And if I need more information, I can put up VizLM from Nugent Audio, as well as iZotope Insight, which not only gives me

16:47 the loudest readings, short-term and long-term, but can actually spit out a report at how many points in time and exactly what time code in the timeline I hit the threshold of either going above it or below it for your min and max loudness readings. Having a tiny little number in the menu bar this. I don't really know if I have a use case for that.

17:13 The nice thing about this one is it is up on GitHub. So if you have an idea where this is close to what you want, but it's missing one or two things, this is also an opportunity to see what you can do. If you tack on a couple extra things, if you fire up Codex or Claude Code and start to play around, maybe you can give them a little suggestion for how to make it even

17:39 better next question this question comes in from paul valhousan austin texas uh is a 10 gigabits per second network adapter necessary to ensure glitch-free uncompressed multi-channel network audio streams well the how wide how wide the highway is uh doesn't always dictate if the car doesn't know which direction to go uh is my gut feeling on this but mickey will give us the

18:04 the real technical answer. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, it depends on how many channels of PCM or AV over IP or audio over IP you need to transport. A single gigabit, one gigabit Ethernet connection would theoretically allow you to transport depending on the protocol that you're using. If you're at 48 kHz, 24-bit, and depending on the protocol that you're using,

18:33 you can transfer roughly 800 channels of audio through a single gigabit connection. So if you have a use case that needs to go over that, then you might want to step up to 10 gig or higher. But in terms of a practical use case, I don't really see people requiring that of a standalone workstation. Perhaps if you are doing, say, a virtualization of a DSP, say, you know, with, you know, Tempest from SSL or Lavo Home from Lavo, you may want that.

19:15 But there are more there are more industrial grade solutions than the a rando 10 gig Ethernet adapter that connects over. What's this USB? Right, and in general, when somebody's doing audio over IP, bandwidth is not the first thing they're running into when they have a problem. Simply making it, what I was getting at earlier, is simply making that pipe a lot bigger doesn't mean that you've configured your switch correctly.

19:44 Now, the other question that I would have is, what else is running through that switch that you feel like you need that extra headroom? Are you managing a virtual network? Are there a bunch of other VLANs on there that also have it crowded? Are you running into an issue with your 1GIG switch or your 1GIG interface because something else is trying to go down that pipe?

20:06 Those are the questions that I would start asking if you're thinking bandwidth might be the issue. Next question. This one is coming in from me, AVB versus Milan certified AVB. I hear that there are differences in some non-certified AVB interfaces could potentially have issues on networks with certified ones. Any experience there? And what about AVB switches? I've heard mixed things. Now, it was my understanding that the Milan AVB versus regular AVB, that it was kind of Milan was sort of a subset, so to speak.

20:41 So it's not going to accept every different kind of format that can come down the pipe. And so if two switches are talking to one another, if one's certified and one is not, then you could have a formatting compatibility. But I haven't used any of the Milan-specific AVB switches, so I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that one. But what I would do if I were in your situation is take a look at what are the audio formats that you're trying to push

21:12 and what are the different specific pieces of hardware that are in your pipeline and then understand how they're talking to one another. Next question. This one is coming in from Paul Valhus in Austin, Texas. Sony's new ECM778 shotgun microphone seems short but gets good reviews. How do you think it rates? Jeff? Well, first of all, I don't know if it's new. It seems to be over a year old in terms of when it was released.

21:42 if I'm looking at the same thing. The price point is very similar to the tried and true Sennheiser MKH 416. You see our model demonstrating right now. And so it looks like, from comparing specs, the Sony's a little bit noisier, but it's shorter and lighter. I think that, if you're just comparing that to, say, the 416, shorter, lighter. it does have a if you need it a a low-end switch I see so I guess if you

22:19 need that a low cut switch so that's neat I guess if you need that but otherwise it seems like the primary motivating factor would be if you just you know want that smaller lighter shorter to mount on the camera for example. Mickey? The shotguns from Sony tend to be seen, at least within the industry, as just top mics, NAT sound mics, natural sound mics, ambience mics that you stick on the top

22:53 of the camera. They haven't really been known to be microphones that, like, say, a professional sound person would actually acquire and hire out. In this case, it looks like this microphone, I think it's about $900,000. So it's certainly on the more expensive end in terms of what people think of in terms of top mics for cameras. So for me, in terms of actually acquiring,

23:25 sticking on a pole swinging it I would go with the tried and true you know Sennheiser Scheps Neumann's what you call this DPAs I would stick with those as opposed to going with Sony which is more known for something that just captures ambience and effects. Courtney? Yeah I have not listen to it. Like in that price range I'm with Mickey, I would stick with the tried and true

23:56 Sennheiser. And looking at the frequency curve, it does have that little, oh, sorry, I'm covering it up there. It does have that little peak at the top there, which is most of the other shotguns, the short shotguns at least, have that little peak in there to help boost dialogue, especially when you put a big furry windscreen on it and use it outdoors because it's going to attenuate a lot

24:19 of the high end. And it'll make it still sound a little fresh. The question is what technology does it use? And the MKH series, the 416 and the 60s, the ones they don't make anymore, have the RF condensers, which have usually a much quieter noise floor and they're much more immune to humidity problems where the ships are not. So just a small diaphragm condenser

24:44 without the RF using the RF technology, modulating RF and then demodulating it, which is what the Sennheiser 416s do. I'm not sure how well it would perform in a humid situation like today in Los Angeles where it's 90% humidity. Next question. All right, this one's from Talak Lopez, Waterman, Santa Fe, New Mexico. Some classical music films and other music have a very wide dynamic range.

25:14 What's the best way to listen to these things and experience the full dynamic spectrum? Jeff? Dynamic range, louds to softs. When we're talking about music, those are those little notations there, the P for piano and double P for pianissimo and F for forte. But when we get into audio, we're talking about the range of loudnesses that go all the way down to the noise floor and all the way up to when we get

25:43 distortion. So what you need is you need a listening system with plenty of headroom, the ability to play loud sounds cleanly, and you need a quiet listening space. So those are the two most important things. Mickey? Yeah. Clark and I were working through a piece that needed to be played out over Zoom, And the dynamics didn't really allow for an unappreciable listening experience from the quietest parts to the loudest parts because the quietest parts just didn't cut through.

26:24 And the loudest parts would have been just way too loud for people listening over Zoom. So that's something we had to fiddle with earlier today, or I guess yesterday for you folks in the U.S. I would say that my answer to Tlaug's question regarding the best way to listen to these things and experience a full dynamic spectrum would be to see or to listen to the orchestra live in a proper hall.

26:55 that way you would not only be hearing it you'd also be experiencing it amongst other people who appreciate the art and also just be in the presence of the orchestra you'll feel it in your chest you'll feel it with multiple senses not just your ears but if you're talking about recorded pieces I would say, yeah, be in a room where you have no qualms about how loud and how loud the stereo system can be and just play it and experience every single note from the quietest parts to the loudest parts.

27:37 I'm going to jump in just for a second and underline what Mickey just said. If you have never made the leap to see a symphony orchestra played live, it's a pretty incredible experience. I've sat, I used to live in, when I lived in the city of Chicago, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra did this great thing. I was in college. So for students, you go for $10.

28:03 And I would go once or twice a month. And I'd been way in the nosebleed seats. One time I got lucky and was, you know, right in the sweet spot, you know, five or six rows back right in the center. And every time, just talking about it now, I get chills because it was just a really incredible experience. So if you've got a local orchestra, support them, see them.

28:23 I'm sorry, no, not next, Jeff, Jeff Francis. So in classical music, I guess we'd say mastering, how we deal with that is we don't rely on compressors and limiters for the most part. It's a massage of levels. So as music gets extraordinarily quiet, we will boost those sections and we will actually balance removing some of the natural dynamics that happen in the music and reducing that somewhat,

28:56 but still keeping that great dynamic range, but making it a little bit more acceptable for listening in less than ideal environments, not the concert hall. Jeff Cohen. Two of my favorite, one which we don't really see anymore, at least in the classic sense, which I'm showing a picture of now, which is the home stereo system. Now, of course, lots of people have an AV setup, perhaps with all the speakers, but it's tuned and set up a little bit differently.

29:31 This is just the tried and true, just sit back, close your eyes and listen to music. I think that is great. And then also, if it is a good enough system and you have a really good seal, and that is in a car. So in a car, if you have a really great seal and you have a decent high-end system in there and speakers, of course, it can be an amazing listening experience.

29:59 Yeah, that's one thing that I always notice when I rent cars. If I rent a car that has a premium auto-eo system and has the sound deadening material in the body of the car to isolate the road noise, it is a pretty great experience. And then I rent something that isn't as high-end, and I can't believe how loud it is in the car with nothing on.

30:22 So, yeah, definitely getting a good isolation is table stakes. Alexander? Yeah, and I agree with some of the comments made too about turning stuff up, having big speakers, really good amplifiers. Really, I mean, speakers definitely going to be the most important thing, but the electronics matter too. You want something that is going to be able to resolve that dynamic range properly and translate it as best as possible.

30:49 And don't make the same mistake that I did because I love these Vanderstein speakers in my living room right now. But I live in an apartment and I can't turn it up very much. It's incredibly frustrating to have these giant speakers and not be able to turn it up. But, yeah, there's no substitute for good speakers with good dynamic range and just turning it up and just fully immersing yourself.

31:14 Courtney? Yeah, and if you're talking about films and some of your favorite films would be the George Gertwin story or something done in the 30s, Remember that those soundtracks were recorded on optical film, and they were severely limiting in dynamic range with a lot of noise on them. Even when films have been remastered, when they take an old film from the 60s or 70s and remaster them for Dolby Surround.

31:41 Remember that a lot of the original masters were not recorded. If they even were recorded in digital, they were probably recorded 16-bit. So bear that in mind. DTS, the original digital theatrical distribution of digital sound was 16-bit, 44.1 kilohertz. So be forewarned that just because you have a great system at home, the pipeline that led to the soundtrack for that film that you're watching on your Blu-ray may not have been

32:13 maintained throughout the years. And you're only as good as your weakest link in the chain as far as dynamic range goes. And speaking of Blu-ray, one of the biggest departures that you get when you get a physical Blu-ray media as opposed to watching it on streaming, the number one thing I notice when I watch a Blu-ray disc versus watching the movie on streaming is how much bigger the

32:41 audio is. It seems like I can hear more finite things in the mix. and it just it feels almost it's just a lot it seems like it's a lot higher definition and then when you start to look at the stats for nerds you go wow that's something mickey yeah um i'll i'll just briefly show you what laluk and i were working on oh cool cool cool yeah um i i do i

33:06 should warn uh folks especially professor francis that uh while we were doing this we were telling ourselves that Jeff Francis and Greg Curta would be yelling at us right now. Just because we kind of just butchered it. So here is the waveform of the original track. We can see the massive dynamics of the track. And I'm not going to play this out to you because we don't want to get.

33:31 This from Vels Bolero? Yes. You can tell from the waveform. That's awesome. Instantly, yep. Let me make sure that all these tracks are muted here. I don't want us to get a strike here, so that's muted. So, no, that is still playing out. Something is still playing out. Okay, that should be silent now. So that's the initial raw track there. And it's playing out right now.

34:07 Actually, let me make sure Let me remove the routing It was Ravel's Bolero? Yeah, well, he's peeking at that If you haven't listened to Ravel's Bolero It is a hilariously funny classical piece That you set anything to that music And instantly it becomes comical It's a great track But yeah, I'm not going to play it Because I'm going to get a strike

34:29 But yeah, we Ravel has been dead for many years We have a really quiet area here and then the dynamics, it gets quite loud. And we applied what we had dubbed a linear gain slope, which if I go into the clip gain that we applied here, it's just one straight line here, a plus 18 dB at the very start and negative 2 dB at the very end,

35:01 which we really kind of butchered this piece here. And after that, we applied some compression at the very end here, which really butchered the track. So we could compare the raw above here. Let me scale that down. The raw above here and the process signal, which it's a different piece. But this is what we ended up doing. I want this to be my party trick that I can look at a WAV file and be like,

35:34 oh, I know that piece of music. That's fantastic. Courtney? Yeah, one other thing I might point out, if you're watching something on your television or with a soundbar, be careful because soundbars can't produce full dynamic range very well. And these days, because of Christopher Nolan and people like him, they have a special mode for enhancing the dialogue so it becomes intelligible, in which case they are boosting

36:01 certain frequencies around the dialogue range, and so you're not getting full dynamic range that way either. So make sure that you have your sound bar set to normal or standard or no tricks, no compression, no decompression, because it will definitely adjust the dynamics of whatever you're listening to and perhaps not in a good way for music. And the other thing, if you are trying to get serious about setting up a home stereo,

36:36 first of all, add 25% to whatever you think you're going to spend because I have an adage that it's never just a set of speakers. You find out that you need a different power amp or you need a different, some sort of different setup or accessory like, oh, I need to put some sort of isolator under my subwoofer so that it doesn't shake the floor in the right way.

36:55 Whatever it is, there's always going to be extra stuff. The other thing that I would say is treat your room before you go and blow a bunch of money on speakers because putting much nicer speakers in a room that's not treated properly is just going to be maybe louder than it was before and have a better dynamic range, better definition, but it doesn't change the fact that your room is still taking a

37:20 lot away. If you go into a high end stereo store that has a listening room that's set up, pay attention to all of the soft surfaces in there and where they have you sitting in the room compared to the speakers and all that stuff. And put some time into developing your space before you just blow all of your budget on speakers. The other thing I will say is it is a marathon, not a sprint.

37:43 And if you go up into my listening room today, there's the oldest piece of kit in there is probably 20 years old. And at the time, I walked into a stereo store, and I was planning on spending like $500 on speakers. And then I heard speakers that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. And I thought, ooh, I've got to have those speakers. And thus began the long descent into

38:11 many years of investments and mistakes. I ended up, I sold a laptop and like two other iPod docks and another set of speakers to get the ones that were three times what I wanted to spend. And today, I think they're part of a rear channel or a height channel or something like that. But still, little by little, as you're going through and you're getting that perfect listening environment,

38:41 remember that it's not just any piece of kit. It's not just any piece of how did I, how did I compress this specific piece? You've got to remember to take your time and enjoy it. Next question. Paul Valhusanossan, Texas is asking, do compact cameras in this series support embedded multi-channel audio for streamlined streaming workflows? Jeff? Paul, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking this question, but I'll answer

39:16 as far as I can. So they are HDMI and SDI outputs, so those support multi-channel. However, if we look at the actual cameras themselves, they only have line-in TRS stereo as far as their audio input, so you're only going to get two channels into the audio. So I'm not exactly sure how you're hoping that these cameras, as part of the audio system, are going to streamline your streaming.

39:49 Yeah, these cameras, some of them do indeed have a two channel input via 3.5 mil or sometimes a separate breakout cable. If two channels fulfills your multi-channel need in your question, that should be fine. But do be warned that these are unbalanced audio inputs that do not have phantom power. If they do have a preamp, they are quite garbage preamps. So they're really more as very, very low NAT sound sources

40:23 that you can push up just a little to get a bit of perspective when you cut to those cameras. But I wouldn't put them on air personally. But they're there, I guess, if you really have your hands tied. Remember, if you're joining us on YouTube, While we appreciate that you're here, we would also like to let you know that there's a lot more.

40:47 If you go to officehours.global.com join, you can get into the chat that goes along during the show. You can ask questions there as well. Vote on the questions. And you get at officehours.global.com join all the links to get into our Discord, as well as our 24 hours a day after hours hangout where you can come in and have other members of the community help you in real time.

41:07 Next question. this question is coming in from another paul valhuis question from austin texas for a talking head desk oh that desk can talk i didn't know that and they have heads uh where the mic must stay out of frame what beats a short shotgun mic like the mke 624 inches that's a sennheiser mic or is that the wrong tool and i should hide a lav jeff so this is interesting and paul's obviously

41:38 investigating the full range of mics. This is that Sennheiser mic. And now, of course, you could go for the $1,000 Sony that we looked at. You know, this is more targeted towards mounting on a camera because it's a little bit smaller. If the goal is simply to have it out of frame, I mean, again, that's what, you know, these things are designed for, right? So you just

42:04 take this and just, you know, get it so it's right out of frame and you don't see it and you have a microphone. Of course, you adjust accordingly. So now I don't like answering the question that a person didn't ask, but I will this time. I'll make an exception, which is, this is just my opinion as far as the talking head. I mean, depending on what that rationale or reason for not having a

42:29 microphone, it must be out of frame. I would encourage you, if it is at all possible to have that conversation. As far as I'm concerned, when you compare it to other folks that don't, it lends credibility to just the look and feel of what you're doing, not to mention better results. So that's what I would try for. Mickey? yeah um if if what you mean by talking head desk is just like a you know what a typical meeting

43:01 setup like what people on the panel here are um are uh joining the panel on um and if the limitation is a microphone being out of frame there there are other variables i would say um how controlled is the environment um how um how much reflective surfaces are in the room i assume there might be computer screens somewhere in front of them or not if it's just like if it's a proper like insert

43:31 studio um then maybe the the closest display would be the prompter that's um you know uh three five uh ten meters away depending on the shot size so and and yeah another uh variable is how large is a shot how far away does the microphone have to be i personally would not put use a shotgun indoors especially in a smaller room environment like a little insert studio definitely not use

43:59 a shotgun because uh because of how the interference tube design works uh you will get a much thinner sound of someone's voice um so avoid shotguns if you need something that can be mounted on a boom or a pole, I would go with a hypercardioid or a supercardioid. Sheps CMC 641, very popular option there. Also the Sennheiser MKH 50 or the younger brother, the Sennheiser MKH 8050.

44:30 That's another option. There are also a variety of options from Neumann, like the... Which one's the hypercardioid? The 151, is it, Jeff? I think the 151 from Neumann. That's another option there. I would definitely avoid shotguns indoors unless you really have a very controlled environment that has very little reflections. If the shot size is pretty tight, than like what the even a large diaphragm

45:10 microphone like this I can place this like just off frame here just below the frame line and I can get away with that so there's a lot of variables but end of the day I wouldn't use a shotgun indoors if I have the option not to I also want to say MKE 600 don't waste your money on that super noisy just never mind

45:34 Courtney Yeah, I think the MK series, correct me if I'm wrong here, because I haven't bought any of that. Because I've been pointed at Mickey, I think it's an Electrette condenser, not a full condenser. And I think they're the ones with AA batteries, I believe. Right, and yes, if you are going to go with a condenser, MKH50, like Mickey recommended, is a good choice.

45:57 Not a shotgun, but it's a cardioid. And it could pick you up. But just a large diaphragm condenser like the Stellar X2 that several of us are using here. Slightly out. Mine, I've got it almost out of the frame from underneath coming in sideways. You don't have to put it vertically in front of you as long as the diaphragm is rotated towards your mouth as you rotate it in its shock mount.

46:24 And also, you know, be aware of the dynamic mics sound good. The high LPR-40s and the Shure's SMB-7s and 6s are great, but you've got to get them in here like this, directly in front of your mouth and within a few inches, within a fist of your mouth to be adequate. And then because if you lean in or lean back, your dynamics are going to change quite a bit on a dynamic microphone

46:52 because of the inverse square law and the dynamics of pressure coming out and having to move that physical diaphragm and that dynamic microphone takes a lot more pressure than it does a large diaphragm condenser. So go with a large diaphragm condenser, set a little further away and you'll hear less anomalies from an interference tube microphone like you would with the 416 or one of the other interference tube shotguns.

47:22 That's going to wrap our Wednesday. Thank you so much for our marvelous panel, for being here and sharing all their life experience. I like to say there is no one of us that's as smart as all of us, and we're no shortage on wisdom here. Also, thank you to our producers for asking such great questions and helping drive the conversation today. And finally, thank you to our back-end crew who helps us look and sound good every single day,

47:45 as well as keeps us organized moving forward. There's a lot to office hours around just the show, and it really is a pleasure and an honor to get to work with everybody. To Lollock Traversal today, had we gone around and asked these questions in person for episode 2360, we'd have went 9,000 miles. That's 15,000 kilometers. 72 million bananas for scale. See you in after hours.

48:13 I could not find it in time, but i always like to throw in the recommendation of the don't hold the love as the tiny microphone right yeah right so just by the way jeff all i can see all i hear or all i see in my head whenever you talk about editing is the reaper just going to town here yeah don't fear the reaper don't

48:36 perfecting the mix hey that's two in a row we had bruce dickinson references on sunday and now I'm here and we've got Don't Fear the Reaper, which was the Cowbell song in that skid. So we're in. And Mickey, thank you for helping rein in my attention deficit. I appreciate it on the compressor question. I get all turned stereo. Putting time into a good sounding hi-fi system

49:01 is one of my... Now everyone...